This is what I'm talking about.

[micron]

This appeared in the herald sun today it has been an ongoing saga.


"Expert advice ignored in epilepsy case
Chloe Adams
16dec03

A KEW couple who replaced their daughter's epilepsy medication with alternative therapy may face criminal charges.

Coroner Phil Byrne yesterday found a fundamental breach of duty of care by the parents contributed to Isabella Denley's death in October 2002.
The 13-month-old girl died after she was taken off the anti-convulsant medication prescribed to her by Royal Children's Hospital epilepsy specialists.

Her parents, Helena and Warren, instead sought the advice of a kinesiologist, an osteopath and even a psychic who told the couple Isabella was reliving past-life traumas.

For the last two weeks of her life, Isabella was given only a homeopathic mixture for her seizures.

Mr Byrne said he had asked the Office of Public Prosecutions to consider a case against the Denleys.

Mr Byrne said it beggared belief why two apparently loving parents would go against the opinions of medical experts.

Mr Byrne said he rejected claims made by the couple that doctors had not informed them of the risks involved in stopping the medication.

"I accept they were advised of the dangers (by doctors). The fact is they were unreceptive," he said. "
end of quote.

This is why I have a problem with most alternative therapies and supernatural mediums.
Even with non serious conditions these quacks are doing harm because they are contributing to a perception of their credibility .

The people responsible for this childs death are not so much the parents as all the dimwits who have built up the faith the parents had in the ability of these ignorant wannabee doctors.Every person who has bleated about the alternative approach treating the cause of the illness rather than the symptoms.

These ignorant plastic healers struggle to understand how the body works in health let alone the disease processes.
Far from alternative medicine having a place, it doesn't, the sooner it is exposed for its ineptitude the better.


:sure:

[Rguess21]

Originally posted by micron
Isabella was reliving past-life traumas.

:nuts:
And voodoo usually works so well....:sure:

[micron]

Originally posted by Rguess21
:nuts:
And voodoo usually works so well....:sure:
Yeah it couldn't be "Isabella has a congenital chemical inbalance in her brain and might die if we don't give her this medication"

Past life trauma,bloody hell.That sort of crap is great to give middle age women something to romanticise about but it is a fairytale .Have you noticed that everyone in a past life is something really exciting like a princess abducted by beduin camel drivers or something.What is wrong with these people?:confused:

[shotglass]

Originally posted by micron
What is wrong with these people?:confused:

Too much time in front of Oprah and the rest of the daytime TV crap telling you how boring your life is? :what:

[STIBROKER]

Originally posted by shotglass
Too much time in front of Oprah and the rest of the daytime TV crap telling you how boring your life is? :what:


BINGO......

[Texan]

Originally posted by STIBROKER
BINGO......

Sti, are you admitting that is how you spend your afternoons??

[wrecker05]

I need a link to this article.:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[micron]

Originally posted by wrecker05
I need a link to this article.:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8174448%255E2862,00.html

here you go although my links never seem to work :rolleyes:
there is another case from a while ago where parents had their child on a fresh air diet.She died too.

[jillamanda]

You're so right Micron, it shits me too. Years ago I shared a house with someone of the alternative persuasion.She had a little boy. I'll never forget the dried peaches she used to give him all the time. He'd suck on them til they were sticky and soggy and then discard them. They were stuck to everything!!! His teeth were really bad too, from all the dried fruit she used to give him. She said it was good for him, she obviously hadn't looked into the sugar levels of dried fruit.....

[cuda]

If only we could take all these weirdo's and social deviants and stick them on an island.... :rolleyes:

[JBMoney]

Originally posted by cuda
If only we could take all these weirdo's and social deviants and stick them on an island.... :rolleyes:

*writes a letter to "Mr. Mark Burnett, c/o CBS"*

[Spotter]

Originally posted by cuda
If only we could take all these weirdo's and social deviants and stick them on an island.... :rolleyes: Me think's Cuda know's it has been tried before, and it didn't work then, either. They just mutilated a language.

[MissCreant]

To be fair, people in this country at least don't have so much faith in their health care system or it's ability to effectively administer it's so-called proper treatments. You can't go to hospital because you'll get sick, female patients get molested by doctors, they stuff up and people die, and for the most part, they're uppity arseholes who couldn't relate to a normal human being if their lives depended on it.
I'm not saying I think these people are smart for doing what they did, but at the end of the day, the same thing could well have happened had they taken her to more traditional practitioners. Not to mention the fact that it's virtually impossible to get traditional treatment these days and alternative therapies are an increasingly cost effective and accessible alternative.
I think it's the fault of a fucked up health system which concerns itself more with glorifying it's doctors and discrediting it's alternative competition, than it does with treating sick people.

[jillamanda]

Originally posted by Spotter
Me think's Cuda know's it has been tried before, and it didn't work then, either. They just mutilated a language.

:mad: I hope you're not talking about Oz!!!!

[micron]

Originally posted by MissCreant

I'm not saying I think these people are smart for doing what they did, but at the end of the day, the same thing could well have happened had they taken her to more traditional practitioners. Not to mention the fact that it's virtually impossible to get traditional treatment these days and alternative therapies are an increasingly cost effective and accessible alternative.
I think it's the fault of a fucked up health system which concerns itself more with glorifying it's doctors and discrediting it's alternative competition, than it does with treating sick people.
They had gone to a real doctor, they were receiving life saving treatment.They withdrew that treatment because they were ignorant and gullible.Their daughter who relied on them for her protection died.It would appear her death could have been prevented if she had remained on her medication.
This has nothing to do with the health system and everything to do with people believing that medical science is just one side of the argument.Its not.Very dedicated and clever people have spent their lives to add to the level of medical knowledge we have now,only to have it challenged by idiots who just pull opinions out of the air or base them on anecdotal evidence.
The doctors and their conduct is not related to whether the knowledge they weild is accurate.They just utilise it,most of the scientists who have developed this knowledge aren't doctors.

The problems with our health system and our medicos would make an interesting separate discussion.
:D

[KrzDefKat]

Well said, Micron. Similar things have happened here.

[Kim Possible]

What amazes me about this story is that those parents didn't notice their child's increase in siezures and such. Our friends have a daughter with a VERY rare (20 cases in the US) diagnosis of epilepsy. With her meds she can have up to 5 very mild siezures a day - without them she's liable to have 1 grand mal siezure a week. Any change in meds is supervised so that the little darling doesn't have any problems. Those parents had to have seen an increase in siezures - what did they do? How could they have thought they were helping?

[evereno]

Not to defend the stupidity of people, but I struggle to make such a harrass judgment of these parents if they believe in alternative methods of treatment. Having a father who takes medication to control his seizures, I understand the importance of taking the meds consistantly. I further do not understand why people refuse to use tradtional medical services.

However, as much as I hate it, true freedom means stupid folks are free to make stupid choices. This becomes difficult when it comes to children lives, but how do you differentiate between when freedom of choice is permissible?

[Spotter]

As a society, we have given far to much control to the courts. By that I mean the lawyers. As long as a buck or two (or 9.5 million) can be made from a lawsuit, we will continue to hear of these type problems. I learned at around the age of 1 to 2 years old that coffee was hot. And I should take care not to burn myself. Some woman learned at the age of 40 something that a hot cup of McDonalds coffee was worth 20 million dollars. Now who pays for that? We do. A family's ignorance of their childs medical condition, and subsequent costs. Who pays for that? We do. I blame it all on the fucking lawyers. And people who don't take care of their own shit.

I know a guy on a message forum in Austin (Tx.) He works for a service that provides basic services and assistance to the needy. He told me of a call from a woman a few months ago. Their phone exchange went something like this:
Her: "I need help in getting my power bill paid, so it won't get turned off."
Him: Have you tried (option A.)
Her: Yes, a few months ago.
Him: Well there is (option B).
Her: I used them two months ago.
Him: You can try (option C).
Her: I used them and they will only pay it once every year.
Him: May I suggest (option D or E).
Her: Yes, used them both, and they will only pay it once.
Him: Well, I have no other choices, you have tried everyone on my lists, all within the last 5 months. And they have all paid your bill for you.
Her: It's a damn shame that there is no one to help me now, isn't it?
Him: Yes it is. (holding back sarcasm.)

The options I refered to all indicate some type of social program to assist the needy. This women told him right off the bat that she worked, and needed assistance "from time to time."

My point is, we created a society where someone else will clean up your mess for you. All you have to do is say "I didn't know coffee was THAT hot." Or "Mr. Lawyer, I need some help." If people took care of their own shit, we wouldn't have this type problem.

[KrzDefKat]

Originally posted by evereno


However, as much as I hate it, true freedom means stupid folks are free to make stupid choices. This becomes difficult when it comes to children lives, but how do you differentiate between when freedom of choice is permissible?

This is true, as much as I hate to admit it as well.
*sighs* I wish the folks in the judicial system would spend more time on defending helpless children, than they do wasting everyone's time on defending the perpetrators as being the victims. :what:

...and yes, you are innocent until proven guilty. I don't deny that.

[shotglass]

Originally posted by evereno

However, as much as I hate it, true freedom means stupid folks are free to make stupid choices. This becomes difficult when it comes to children lives, but how do you differentiate between when freedom of choice is permissible?

Freedom of choice ends when your choices endanger the health/safety of someone else, especially a child.

[evereno]

Originally posted by shotglass
Freedom of choice ends when your choices endanger the health/safety of someone else, especially a child.

I general I would agree that individuals freedom of choice should not trump the rights of others. However, one must be careful when we seek to enforce "our" views of appropriate parenting on others. Particularly when it comes to health and medical decisions. While I disagree with the choices of these parents, I would be more hostile and supportive of disciplinary actions if the parents intentionally/knowingly or uncaringly allowed the death of their child. (Though I can make an argument that they did knowingly allowed the death of their child.)

I am always leery of statements and actions that attempt to interfere in parenting, particularly with liberal/secularist using cases such as this to justify the state's interference in families. While these events are tragic, having the state attempt to dictate parenting will endanger to freedom of parents to raise their children based on their personal religious, cultural or moral views.

I am actually more critical of the spread of these psuedo-medical (use this term loosely) treatments that ignore medical science that lead to poor decisions by the parents.

[shotglass]

Yeah, this one is a tough call, and opening the door for the government on something like this would be more like opening a Pandora's box for those with ulterior motives to take advantage of. Perhaps there is some sort of legal remedy where there can be monitoring of the childs health in situations like this. Some type of legislation that can safeguard both the parents' freedom of religion with the welfare of their children in mind.

[KrzDefKat]

That's what I was trying to say, Shotglass, but I couldn't make it come out right. :what:
There has been a few cases here of kids dying, because their parent's were Jehovah's Witnesses, and their kids needed transfusions. Now, as far as I'm concerned, y'all can believe what you want to believe, I don't get into religious discussions, but to lose your kid?
I think, if a professional medical person recommends something to try to save the life of your child, you should listen, and if not, then the child should be taken away from you.
I was raised Catholic, but I have my own standards now.

Damn, did any of that come out right? :what:

[evereno]

The problem you have Krz is that if you permit the government to make that judgment call in this particular situation, than you still open the door for the arrogant elitest to expand the government rights into other areas.

If you look at the courts today, they have run beserk by infringing their secularist values on all americans, trampling the freedom that we are supposed to have. Further, looking at the same judiciary, we are already experiencing religious persecution because of these same folks. While I do not hold with the teaching of most religions, I am very skeptical of giving the government/courts greater authority to further persecute groups because of their religious beliefs.

Shotglass, if there was a way to write a law that protects all children and not trample the religious freedom and parental rights I would be one of the first to work for its enactment, I just do not know how to accomplish that in the current environment.

[KrzDefKat]

Sorry, the quote thingy is not working for me, again.

Evereno, I don't normally get into political discussions. Nor religious.
I was merely trying to state my views that a child's rights should come first. I don't have any children, nor can I have any.

I had to stop and think about "arrogant eliteist". Do you know my brother? I am sure his pic would be in the dictionary next to that entry. :hehe:

I'm certainly not arguing with anyone.. But I hope the parents of this kid get what they gave. Nuff said. :mad:

[evereno]

Originally posted by KrzDefKat
I was merely trying to state my views that a child's rights should come first. I don't have any children, nor can I have any.

I had to stop and think about "arrogant eliteist". Do you know my brother? I am sure his pic would be in the dictionary next to that entry. :hehe:

I'm certainly not arguing with anyone.. But I hope the parents of this kid get what they gave. Nuff said. :mad:

I totally understand and respect your view on this issue. I actually agree more than disagree with you. I just have a distrust or pessimistic view when in comes to granting government too much authority into the lives of individuals and families.

As for your brother, I do not know him, but if he is anything like my brother, I know what he is like.

Lastly, I rarely argue, I just express my point of view. Every once in a while, I may raise a point just to provide I a different point of view just because.

[shotglass]

Originally posted by evereno

Shotglass, if there was a way to write a law that protects all children and not trample the religious freedom and parental rights I would be one of the first to work for its enactment, I just do not know how to accomplish that in the current environment.

With the judiciary the way it is now, you can't. Even the Supreme Court can't be relied on to interpret the laws any more, they are rewriting the laws as they go. We need to sweep all of them out and start over.

[JasmineDreamz]

Originally posted by shotglass
With the judiciary the way it is now, you can't. Even the Supreme Court can't be relied on to interpret the laws any more, they are rewriting the laws as they go. We need to sweep all of them out and start over.

Clarification please Shotty:
sweep out the supreme court or sweep out the laws and start over?

[bearfoot]

I hope that alternative therapies are not blamed for the death of this child..it's her stupid parents who are to blame. Unless they are intellectualy impaired it has me baffled how they could have been big enough fuckwits to take her off medication against the advice of medical doctors.
I am an advocate of alternative therapies (no surprise there). I think think it gives people the opportunity to particapate in their own well being....and yeah, if you have dandruff you should go off medicated treatment and try something natural like vinager..but for fuck sake common sense must prevail....whether or not the childs illness was caused by a passed life is a moot point...the condition was real and dangerous in this incarnation.
I'm a Reiki chanel...it's a nice holistic therapy that aids well being...when I did the courses many years ago the instructor repeated over and over that no-one should stop taking prescribed medication because they use Reiki, but to use the Reiki along with the tradition medicine. It's a shame there is no control over these 'new age' or alternative therapies but then there is no control over idiocy and that is where the problem really lies
I loathe the thought of filling my childs body with chemicals and pharmacuticals and beleive that parents need to be more concious of how much is used,how often and potential side effects.... as with childrens panadol which many parents give to their kids at the slightest raise in temp or soar throat.
That poor little girls parents should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.

[evereno]

BF, I do not think anyone is excusing the actions of the parents, however, I think the rise in alternative medicines and foolish advice by some perceived expert leads questionable parents to make stupid choices. Further, while I believe will agree that there should be some way to hold parents who endanger the lives of there children to an account, it is difficult to accomplish that without jeopardizing parental control and individual/religious freedom to the government. For some, that is just as great a tragedy.

As with most threads, they tend to evolve into greater discussions than the original thoughts.

Lastly, Reiki chanel? Love to here more about it, I have never heard of it before.

[evereno]

BF, before you post, I found the following link regarding Reiki. If you have more to add, please do. If anyone else is interested enjoy the link:

Link (http://www.algonet.se/~anki-p/reikifaq.html)

[bearfoot]

Thanks for your interest Cuda....checked out the link....that about sums it up. Reiki is simply channeling Universal energy thro the hands..the same sort of energy as the chi energy (as in Tai Chi)..which is a life force energy..tho in Tai Chi I think it's drawn up thro the earth.
The link did give a reference at the start to being a "healing"...which isa little misleading..anyone who offers to heal is probably a phoney. The energy Reiki uses flows thro the body and helps the body to create its own inner healing. The effects vary from astounding to pleasant and at the very least will give the recipient the sort of feeling one has after an excellent relaxing massage. If the person has been extremely tense or stressed it can cause a sudden weep as the energy helps the body relax and release whatever is held in.
Also it's not something one should ever sell..tho there are plenty who do. Reiki is Universal energy there for everyone and really should be given.
Well worth trying for anyone who gets the opportunity to try it.
:cool:

[cuda]

Originally posted by bearfoot
Thanks for your interest Cuda....

psssst... that was evereno. :p

[shotglass]

Originally posted by JasmineDreamz
Clarification please Shotty:
sweep out the supreme court or sweep out the laws and start over?

Sweep out these judges who are writing laws from the bench. They aren't there to impose their will on us, they are supposed to be ruling on what is or is not legal based on the way the laws are written by the Legislatures.

[evereno]

Originally posted by bearfoot
Thanks for your interest Cuda....checked out the link....that about sums it up. Reiki is simply channeling Universal energy thro the hands..the same sort of energy as the chi energy (as in Tai Chi)..which is a life force energy..tho in Tai Chi I think it's drawn up thro the earth.
The link did give a reference at the start to being a "healing"...which isa little misleading..anyone who offers to heal is probably a phoney. The energy Reiki uses flows thro the body and helps the body to create its own inner healing. The effects vary from astounding to pleasant and at the very least will give the recipient the sort of feeling one has after an excellent relaxing massage. If the person has been extremely tense or stressed it can cause a sudden weep as the energy helps the body relax and release whatever is held in.
Also it's not something one should ever sell..tho there are plenty who do. Reiki is Universal energy there for everyone and really should be given.
Well worth trying for anyone who gets the opportunity to try it.
:cool:

Thanks BF, no problem about mistaking me for Cuda, I will not hold that against you.:rolleyes:

[cuda]

Originally posted by evereno
Thanks BF, no problem about mistaking me for Cuda, I will not hold that against you.:rolleyes:

:nolike:

[bearfoot]

Originally posted by cuda
psssst... that was evereno. :p

Dam...sorry guys...ya fooled me with those helmuts:OOPS: :rolleyes:

[Seaman Stains]

Originally posted by bearfoot
Dam...sorry guys...ya fooled me with those helmuts:OOPS: :rolleyes:
Don't worry I sometimes mistake their bloody similar avatars too!
I'm no expert on the subject but I guess one bloke's helmet looks much the same as another's!

[bearfoot]

Originally posted by Seaman Stains

I'm no expert on the subject but I guess one bloke's helmet looks much the same as another's! [/B]

lol.....actually was thinking the same thing but refrained from saying it...but hey..someone had to :D

[cuda]

Originally posted by Seaman Stains
Don't worry I sometimes mistake their bloody similar avatars too!
I'm no expert on the subject but I guess one bloke's helmet looks much the same as another's!


My helmet has the better record. ;) :hehe:

[micron]

Originally posted by bearfoot
I hope that alternative therapies are not blamed for the death of this child..it's her stupid parents who are to blame. Unless they are intellectualy impaired it has me baffled how they could have been big enough fuckwits to take her off medication against the advice of medical doctors.
I am an advocate of alternative therapies (no surprise there). I think think it gives people the opportunity to particapate in their own well being.
That poor little girls parents should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.
Alternative therapies are to blame.If you and I were to compare alternative and evidence based medicine we would ,I believe find ourselves in an impasse.At the end of the day adherence to alternative therapies relies on faith,just like religion.If you don't have faith you are judged illinformed by the followers.In most cases adherents are guilty of cognitive dissonance so when they suffer real dissorders they trot off to the doc and follow his advice.In this case the parents had real faith, true believers.It cost them their daughter who I am sure they loved greatly.
When I hear alternative therapies being lauded for their wholistic nature,healing from within and treating the cause not the symptoms I am shitted off on behalf of all the dedicated clinicians I know.They deal with real illness and quietly go about it with all these elements but enduring the ignorant critiquing of people armed only with a few bogus anecdotes.
There is no doubt cases of poor treatment in coventional medicine occur, there are some doctors who are shockers.Medical science can't be held accountable for them, they should be and are.When did you last see an alternative practioner hauled through the coals for negligence,their childish doctors and nurses games aren't important enough and in cases like this they just blame the parents for listening to them in the first place.
As for charging the parents with manslaughter I think that is anal conservative nonsence.The only punishment required is a concise coronial finding that details who is responsible and why.These parents will be paying for their folly for the rest of their lives.

:sure:

[bearfoot]

Man..that is such a load of drivle I almost can't be bothered responding. You are obviously and inteligent man but you also appear to have issues with anything that isn't mainstream.

Are you saying these parents aren't responsible for their daughters death??? I fail to see how anyone but the parents are to blame. They were stupid enough to choose to withhold
vital medication against sound medical advice...which means basically that they passively killed her.
*I can't see how you come to the conclusion that alternative therapies require some sort of faith???
Personaly I think it's great will live in an age where we can have access to both modern medicine and the technology that goes with plus be able to apply alternative thereapies to compliment it.
I think we should use all resources available to keep ourselves informed to obtain well being for ourselves and our children.

[micron]

Originally posted by bearfoot
you also appear to have issues with anything that isn't mainstream.


I can't see how you come to the conclusion that alternative therapies require some sort of faith???

If you receive treatment from a chiropractor , sound medical knowledge tells us that you can't realign the spine with manipulation.It doesn't work that way.
Iridologists ,controlled assessment of their abilities to diagnose have shown that they are quacks.
Naturopaths only real knowledge comes from mainstream medicine.
Chinese medicine and hebalism does not even have a grip on how the human body works in health let alone its disease states.
From above apparently Reiki relies on the belief that there is universal energy that can be applied with hands.

All these things require faith as there is no physical proof that they work.

I dont see things as mainstream or alternative.I assess new things and put them in the does work/ doesnt work list, I have to, its what people pay me for.I do that also with new things presented to me from mainstream sources regularily."Alternative " devotees flatter themselves by feeling I pay them special attention.

About 100 years ago inquisitive people put the myriad of cures under scrutiny.They rejected ineffective ones and utilised effective ones.Medical science was born and it was the alternative medicine of the day.Recently many of these failed practices have started reappearing as alternatives but they still don't work.

I do have a thing about faiths that don't work because they can harm or kill people as shown in this case.

[bearfoot]

Hey Micron....want to apologise for the opening of my last post...was uncalled for to refer to your post as drivle...sorry was feeling cranky and responded off the top of my head.
Have to admit you went the whole hog on the long word thing...."adherents are guilty of cognative disonance"...man I can hardly wait to work that one into a conversation. :rolleyes:

OK...so I get the point of the faith thing..tho I'm not comfortable with the word faith..to me it relates to religion...as in belief of an ideology..which is of course totally based in thought and has no physicality. What you refer to as faith I consider to be just a belief.

Universal engery does exist and it provable...I don't know enough about the subject to give any stats and details but I'll look around. Everything gives off energy...what is usually refered to as life force energy. And people give off an energy too....again can't recall any detail...but we all give off either alpha or beta waves. (anyone who has some knowledge of this please jump in.)
I can only compare this with um...radio...we can't see radio waves can we...we can't prove they exist coz we can't see them...but we can receive them if we have a radio so they must be out there floating round available for us to channel if we have the right equiptment. Energy works much the same way.
Reiki doesn't rely on belief...it works anyway...the person channeling the energy doesn't have to believe it...neither does the person receiving it.....much like electricity....you don't have to believe it (or see it) to receive the energy and get a blast.

Maybe we need to clarify what alternative therapies are we talking about.......things like aromatherapy and kiniesiology....or are we talking about the out there stuff like past like therapy and rebirthing. Phranic healing works...one can't prove it but it it has a profound effect and even tho I am sceptical of all this sort of thing myself, I've had a few phranic healing sessions and have been astounded at the effect..even tho I fully beleive it shouldn't work..it does.....but of course I'm not stupid enough to think it can heal a life threatening illness...but it can sure stop a headache.

I've lived on many communes (co-ops) over the years and have met some folk with beliefs that range from kooky to dangerous. So many of them not only live and believe in off beat practices..they raise their kids that way too and I've seen things I've consider unhealthy and just bad hygeine..it's scarey that people are stupid enough to risk their childrens health.

Common sense isn't all that common. :what:

[micron]

Originally posted by bearfoot
Hey Micron....
A very sound post.:D
I will alter my opinion accordingly:)