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gopsdragon
01-10-03, 04:03 PM
A particular section of Aristotle's "Politics" is disturbing when you look at what is going on with the attorney general's office right now.

Aristotle discusses different forms of government and how to preserve and how to destroy them. In one discussion he is describing how tyrants try to retain power.

While I don't think Ashcroft wants to be a tyrant in Aristotle's model, the likenesses are troubling none the less. Part of being a free society is being vigilant enough to learn the lessons of history and not repeat them.

Listen to what Aristotle says about a tyrant attempting to retain his power; compare those actions to the powers Ashcroft has requested; and see if it troubles you the way it troubles me.

Paragraph 1313a34
"Tyrannies can be preserved in two ways, which are utterly opposed to one another. One of them is the traditional way; and it is also the method of government still followed by the majority of tyrants....

to require every resident in the city to be constantly appearing in public, and always hanging about the palace gates. (In this way they are least likely to escape notice in what they do and they will come to have a low opinion of themselves as a result of being continually in the position of slaves.)

This line of policy also includes other tyrannical measures of a similar character, common in Persia and other barbarian countries.

For example, a tyrant may try to ensure that nothing which any of his subjects says or does escapes his notice. This entails a secret police, like the female spies employed at Syracuse, or the eavesdropping sent by the tyrant Hieron to all social gatherings and public meetings....He may sow mutual distrust and foster discord between friend and friend; between people and notables; between one section of the rich and another."

To always feel like you are under observance and to feel uncomfortable are the points of the strategy above. In the modern day we don't have to stand at the city gates, with technology every home can be the city gate in which you are being observed.

A bad precedent is being set for later abuses, even if the guys who put the system into place don't plan on abusing it.

Eddy's Geist
01-10-03, 05:08 PM
Great post. I wonder how Aristotle would have viewed the Total Information Act? I love the idea of have all my credit card, atm, banking transactions, etc... being made available for data mining ;)

Pistol Pete
01-14-03, 04:08 AM
I only trade in gophers, so they can't trace me. I used to trade in underwear, but the skid marks left a DNA line. What will these bastards think of next?!

Butterlugs
01-15-03, 12:22 AM
Nice quote but I think the application to Ashcroft is a stretch, Ashcroft would have to be a tool of George Bush's tyranny, as he cannot act alone in his capacity as AG to be a tyrant, do you want to go there?

Also I would suggest to anyone that thinks we have become oppressive under Ashcroft to go to a foriegn democratic country, even France and compare the fredoms we still have. Even our great Canadian friends routinely muzzle the press coverage on criminal and political scandals, and there is no equivalent if the Miranda rights. In france you still have to register when you change neighborhoods.

gopsdragon
01-15-03, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Butterlugs
Nice quote but I think the application to Ashcroft is a stretch, Ashcroft would have to be a tool of George Bush's tyranny, as he cannot act alone in his capacity as AG to be a tyrant, do you want to go there?

I clearly stated in my post that I don't believe Ashcroft wants to be a tyrant in Aristotle's model; however, acquiring phone tap rights etc. and other powers over American citizens is a troubling precedent. Even if Bush never plans on abusing those powers, left in place over time, those powers will be abused.

Additionally, I don't care if we are free in comparison to other countries; I only care if we really do have liberty. In France, some guy may be making the argument that the French are free compared to the old Soviet Union. It doesn't mean France is a country protecting the traditional liberties of the west.

Butterlugs
01-15-03, 01:48 PM
Welcome to a state of war.

Its why my relatives held their nose and went along with the Japanese internment camps 60 years ago. To enjoy freedom one needs to be alive first. The laws are also sunsetted, lets see what happens then.

In the meantime you are free to move about the country.

That is all.