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View Full Version : Maybe we've lost the Cold War after all.


gopsdragon
01-03-03, 03:35 PM
I understand tracking foreigners in and out, but didn't we spend trillions of dollars making sure the Soviets didn't put us under the eye of an all-powerful communist government?


U.S. Proposes Visitor Tracking System
1 hour, 51 minutes ago Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!


By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Millions of travelers arriving and departing the United States will have to submit detailed personal information this year under rules proposed by the federal government Friday as part of the war on terrorism.

The rules proposed by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, once they are finalized, seek more information from travelers than under current law and for the first time extend the requirements to U.S. citizens and others previously exempted.

All airlines, cargo flights, cruise ships and other vessels carrying crew or passengers will be affected, with the exception of ferry boats. The information will be sent electronically to the government before a traveler arrives in the United States or departs from it, giving officials a complete manifest of exactly who is on board.

"It's another way to enhance security for travelers," said INS spokeswoman Kimberly Weismann.

The changes were mandated by broad border security legislation that passed Congress overwhelmingly and was signed into law May 14 by President Bush (news - web sites). The law also tightened rules regarding issuance of visas to visitors and students coming to the United States and adding more Border Patrol officers, among other things.

For years, international travelers have been required to fill out forms detailing their arrival and departure from countries around the world. The U.S. government, however, has not previously required its own citizens to submit such forms. Canadians, permanent resident aliens and certain other people were also exempted.

The proposed INS rule would require all passengers arriving or departing, as well as crew members, to provide this information: name; date of birth; citizenship; sex; passport number and country of issuance; country of residence; U.S. visa number and other details of its issuance; address while in the United States; and, where it applies, alien registration number.

The law also gives Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) leeway in proposing further requirements. In the INS rule, Ashcroft has added a proposed "passenger name record" for airlines that will enable the government to better match a departure record with one for an arrival.

Once the information is collected, it will be transmitted to the U.S. government and matched against "the appropriate security databases" prior to the travelers' arrival. Anyone who raises a red flag regarding terrorism or other law enforcement concern could be met by officials when the ship or plane arrives in this country.

That computer system is still being developed, meaning the rules will probably take full effect later this year. The INS estimates they will affect 108 large commercial air carriers and ship lines, as well as more than 14,400 smaller carriers of both kinds. Initial costs to the private sector in complying with the rules are pegged at $166 million.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030103/ap_on_re_us/tracking_travelers_2

Pistol Pete
01-03-03, 04:12 PM
I'll tell ya this: I have Nazi, Soviet, and other lesser communist uniforms in my collection. However, I don't want to see them arriving on my porch with anyone but me in them. Ya know?

Eddy's Geist
01-03-03, 08:05 PM
Excellent article, Gops.

I have a feeling that this is only the beginning though.
So, what's anyone going to do about it? I'll tell you...nothing..nothing at all. Half the country is being branded as unpatriotic and the other half is being seduced by false patriots.

Let me ask this, is this what a republicans stand for? Is this the concept of "smaller government" in action?

Is Ashcroft a republican???

uncle john
01-03-03, 08:37 PM
I seems to me that we've brought this on ourselves. There was a time that we the people just wanted to be left alone to drink our tea without being taxed or at least have a voice in that taxation. When we were told no we rose up and kicked their collective arse. Then in the 19th century they got uppity and burned our seat of government and we kicked their arse again.In the 20th century we wanted to be left alone to drink and fight among ourselves and they sank an oceanliner and we went to Europe and kicked their ass twice. Then we came to Korea and let politicians negociate a tie Southeast Asia a loss. Then the touchie feely limp dick liberals let a handfull of rag head kids take over American soil ( embassy property Iran) without a valid asskickin response because we didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. The message we've sent to the world Ie: the people who hate us is that you can do anything you want to us because we feel your pain and won't push our imperialist ideals on you. I feel the same way as pistol pete I don't want any one but him walking up on my porch in those uniforms he mentioned. If they do I'm feeding them to my barking anaconda.
If you wish peace prepare for war

Eddy's Geist
01-03-03, 11:44 PM
Uncle John, I think you're confusing the issue here. GOPS wasn't talkning about an enemy outside of our borders... he's talking about the enemy inside.

We can have security without having to track US citizens.

Pistol Pete
01-04-03, 12:00 AM
Right-o, Eddy. The whole thing is way more dangerous to the population because it's internal. As for doing nothing, that's not how I was raised. Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness is ingrained in my soul. I owe it to the dead and to the living to help keep this nation the greatest the planet has ever had. I've already been under fire and it's not fun. However, that's the price you pay for freedom. If you make it, great! If not, take as many of the bastards with you as you can. At least those won't be bothering your family, friends, and fellow Americans anymore.

Eddy's Geist
01-04-03, 01:15 AM
Pete, it's good to see you write those words. Seriously. The one hope that this country has of not sliding in to a police state is if the Republicans stand up and say "This is acceptable and that is NOT acceptable" meaning... no one is going to listen to the democrats right now.. hell, they're part of the problem. But the powers that be will listen to the republicans and if you guys don't put a halt to some of these power grabs to our personal freedoms.. then it's going to keep on sliding out of our grip. I wouldn't be surprised if gun ownership is severely curtailed in the future and I'm pretty damn sure that conversations like the one were having won't be taking place in the next few years as it simply won't be worth the hassle of having to defend one's ideas and words if we're being scrutinised by some beuracracy that's wrapped itself in the flag of security.

The whole Liberal/Conservative battles are fun and all but it's time we stopped letting ourselves get distracted by this BS as we all need to focus on whatever the hell it is that's beginning to form. Something is going on...

shotglass
01-04-03, 07:42 AM
You're right, Eddy. Something IS going on, and I don't like the way it is shaping up. Tighter restrictions on foreigners I can understand, but tightening them on US citizens? We still have a massive problem with illegal aliens in this country, flooding in from Mexico and Canada. Mexico especially. Why the hell is this problem not being dealt with? Why are they tightening the screws on us, and not the people who come here illegally for unknown reasons?

Politicians, kill the whole lot of them and start over.

/end of rant.

Eddy's Geist
01-04-03, 11:20 AM
I guess that the first step is to ask "who" is shaping these policies... that answer would hopefully lead to the "why".

Deamon
01-04-03, 12:05 PM
Agree with eddy, only the beginning, they shut down raisethefist again, and they are heavily monitoring the maoist organizations and keep track of who visits www.marx2mao.org now.

shotglass
01-04-03, 01:31 PM
Who is "they", Deamon? The Feds? The host that carries those sites? I can see monitoring some poeple, but shutting them down stops them from watching you. And they are watching us all....

uncle john
01-04-03, 08:16 PM
Eddy make some good points and I am not saying I think we should go gently into that good night but that we the people have let the two strongest emotions in this country (apathy and greed ) rule us and because of this we have come to this turn of events and if we don't start paying attention and kicking butt we will end up in a place even Orwell couldn't imagine.

Deamon
01-04-03, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by shotglass
Who is "they", Deamon? The Feds? The host that carries those sites? I can see monitoring some poeple, but shutting them down stops them from watching you. And they are watching us all....

The feds shut down raisethefist before because they claimed the owner of the site was sending terroristic threats and they wrecked his house and threw him in jail for a couple weeks but he wasn't charged with anything. I don't know what happened to him now but its safe to assume he got shut down again. I don't always think it is CIA or FBI though, ZOG regularly has hand play in this.

Eddy's Geist
01-05-03, 11:57 PM
As much as we might want to say we would fight back... here's the reality of the situation.

As soon as you make any statement or action You will be taken away and questioned by proffesionals who can and will make you say anything. Attornies to represent you are not allowed. No matter if you are a citizen or not. Actually, you don't have to say anything. Words will be attributed to you.

All your assets will be seized "for investigation"

If you have children they will be removed and put in to protective custody

The media.. hungry for any type of story will report what information the government gives them and the character assasination will be played to the hilt. If you are a lone person.. you will invariably be portrayed as insane. If it's a group then conspiracy charges will be levied and all kinds of crap that isn't real will be attributed to the group.

There is simply no way to fight an authoritarian government.

Pistol Pete
01-06-03, 12:34 AM
You got it, Eddy. Like, how come the Kennedys live in a "compound" and they haven't been assaulted by the Feds? But, if it's anyone else, that is, anyone who isn't part of the problem, they claim they're in a "compound" and rain fire on them and say it's the victums' fault for being attacked. Bastards!

Eddy's Geist
01-06-03, 12:12 PM
Pete, yeah... I was being kind of "doom and gloom" when I wrote that but you're right. If you don't have some kind of "protected status" then you're mincemeat. About the only way to actually pull off any sort of resistance is to co-opt the media and have them put a positive spin on what you're trying to accomplish.

Actual resistance through the use of arms will only get one blown to smithereens as US forces can now be used within US borders. (Another post 9/11 change in our security laws). Militias made up of US citizens who are concerned for the wlfare of the constitution simply will not work as they may have in the past.

uncle john
01-07-03, 08:14 PM
Federal troops working on U.S. soil isn't the half of it I seem to remember back in the Clintonista era something about giving the U.N. the right to command our troops on our soil. All hail the new world order....:(

Deamon
01-07-03, 09:14 PM
I'd trust the U.N more than the bush administration to not take away our rightss, you cannot get much more sickeningly liberal than the U.N (yes I am anti liberal but I am also anti right winger)