NeverWinter Nights: Beyond Level 20

[JBMoney]

The discussion hasn't come up here, but the fact remains that NWN establishes a game environment where you can only get to level 20 (so far). If you're playing, you can tell that a level 20 character is pretty damn powerful under 3rd Edition AD&D rules. Further, if you're playing Multi-Player, which is the focus, it'll take A LOOONG time to get there. If you play the single player all the way through though, you're kind of stuck after you finish (like my 20th Ranger).

However, a lot of people (read: mostly powergamers), are complaining about the level 20 issue, since in their book the constant levelling is more important than the experience . Here's the thing, it only goes to level 20 because the folks that make the official 3rd Edition AD&D rules haven't made any rules for Level 20+ characters.. yet.

The folks that make NeverWinter have no control over this process, they strictly license the right to use 3rd Edition AD&D rules in the game and aren't really allowed to make up their own rules for what happens beyond that.

Some good news on that... I think.

Just this week, Wizards of the Coast is releasing the "Epic Level Handbook", take a look here:
http://store.wizards.com/product.asp?ProductID=11086

The Epic Level Handbook takes 3rd Edition players beyond 20th level, at least for the pen & paper campaigns. How and when (and if?) this will be implemented in the PC campaigns is still a mystery to me. I would wager though that there will be a lot of pressure to implement them.

[Eddioboy]

I played through about half the amount that a guy at work has, and my rogue is the same level as his character. This is because he plays on a LAN with his wife, and I suppose they share XP! Somehow that seems to punish people working together.

By the way, I have made my way through the peninsula area, and am now in the Blacklake district. I have to justify to myself now why it was the right thing to slay 25 people to free 4 zoo animals. Well, the animals were unhappy after all. Sorry Jack Hanna!

[JBMoney]

Yeah, but they must have been evil to treat animals that way... right... :what:

Just pretend your some sort of midevil PETA member. Honestly, I can't see how you can finish the single-player without compromising your alignment, unless you are evil to start with. Clearing out whole structures of relative innocents just to grab some key quest item.

You're helping make my point on the level 20 thing. If you play multiplayer, level 20 is going to be a long way off. Not only do you share XP (encounters scale to the party, btw) but it just plain takes longer to do anything by committee. Like trying to coordinate a half-dozen folks to go on a camping trip - it's definitely a lot faster just to get up, get in your car, drive out and do it. AND... you probably won't want to go through the single player again, when there are so many party modules already available.

The fun of PNP AD&D was the interactions with real people and exploring someplace new, roleplaying, etc., NOT just accumulating XP. Take time and smell the roses I think. There are an almost infinite number of characters and skill stes that can be made with the new rules.

[Eddioboy]

Yeah, you almost want to pace yourself, so your character will have someplace to go in other modules.

I suddenly remembered that in the Player's Handbook, you are allowed to have a max of level 20 in a class, but you could still level up your multiclasses. I had visions of 60th level multiclassed characters in NWN until I read the manual, and no, we're allowed a maximum of 20 character levels, not just class levels.

I hope that a future NWN version will allow for epic level characters, but I would also welcome an update to the current game that allows people to have, for example, that level 18/15/10 Monk-Barbarian-Illusionist they always wanted.

As far as smelling the roses, I think that's why I'm still only 5th level. I need to stop wasting all my virtual gold down at the Board Laid Bare! :thumbsup:

[JBMoney]

Yes, the third level rules made big changes in the progression. If you're a 19th level something or other and then want to get one level of rogue, it's going to take you just as much xp as it would to be a 20th level something or other. I think that's a real disincentive to multi-classing. Like you say, hopefully the higher levels will someday allow the prestige classes. I was going to go for a ranger/thief until I found that out.

Overall though, I like the changes. The trade off is finally getting some real diversification among classes. For example, my Ranger can remove just about any trap in the game so far, even though he has no thief levels at all.

I actually played a little multiplayer tonight. It was pretty cool. I may do a little tomorrow night too, or at other points in the day. If you log on to the Internet Game listing and go to the role-playing games, there is a local vault, semi-persistent world that can handle up to 15 people. I forgot the name, but it had a great Ping time from Sacramento.

My account is under Atilla (my Ranger) but I'm playing a Cleric named John Beckett (8th level). There's a bunch of undead in that particular world so I was having a blast. Undead turning is 1000% better in the new game (you couldn't even tell if it was working in Baldur's Gate). So, let me know if you log on, or just look for me.

NWN is MUCH EASIER to multi-play than Baldur's Gate. Virtually painless, except for doing a little reconfig on my proxy server.

[JBMoney]

The module is Adventure Island. But I might be on anything that is not PvP.

[Eddioboy]

NWN also includes the XP penalties from 3rd Edition associated with leveling up with class levels more than one level apart from each other (excluding certain races and classes). This acts as an incentive to level up your classes together, without a big gap between them.

I probably will try multiplayer sometime soon, but I will first see if my modem kills it or not. It does sound fun, and if I seem to be able to play without too much difficulty, I'll keep an eye out for you!

[JBMoney]

We should try something this weekend with any of you out there who have the game.

I have a level 3 thief, level 12 cleric and a level 20 ranger I could play. Wouldn't mind starting a new sorceror, druid or fighter. Whatever fits.

I did have some problems on Sunday. I kept getting dumped out of games. My cleric must have hit Level 10 three or four times total. SAVE CHARACTERS OFTEN!!!

I'm getting to know some of the more reliable and interesting modules, as well as the dogs, so I could make suggestions. Learning a lot. Think I could make one just as good as most of the current crop, and probably more complete.

[Wham Valdez]

I've made a lvl 11-12 ranger but he mostly just slugs it out with swords or kanas or whatever.
Not very good at being subtle. I have no idea when the sneak or hide skills are helpful hahha. HACK N SLASH BABEEE!

[JBMoney]

Rangers have always been my favorite, even though I never really got much use out of their special skills (dungeons are indoors after all) or spells.

Allowing them the ability to summon an animal companion, and FINALLY implementing some reasonable dual-wield abilities, really beefed up that class to what it should be.

My level 20 went through the single-player with nothing but studded leather (eventually found a +2), and I generally used the monk as henchman for the whole single-player campaign. No spell-casting and didn't really need the thief since I trained the ranger to remove traps, and a monk can get serious damage on pretty much any locked chest.

One of the things that bugged me (and Jimness who I've heard nothing from although I recently sent him an email on this) about BG was that every battle ended up being a spell-casting duel. It mainly came down to having the spellcasters run the right sequence of spells and then hope for a good saving throw, and it seemed that EVERY mage in BG was using some kind of major sequencer (naturally). In the single-player NWN, that wasn't much of a problem, which was a nice suprise (the BG add-on was pretty cool too in this respect, more physical battles).

[Eddioboy]

I have a rogue (5th level), but it is a bit of a hassle to sneak up behind people. It requires telling henchmen to chill out by the door, then you risk being seen in the light, etc. I have done it, and bestowed much pain onto the victim, but I'm able to sneak attack more often than I expected, whether I sneak up to them or not, because they are often flat footed (good initiative must be what I thank for that).

I'm thinking of building up a mage or sorceror for multiplayer games. I like the rangers with their two weapons abilities, so I might make a ranger-sorceror.

I tried multiplayer, and it seemed I could participate without too many 56k problems, so I'm up for a session when you are.

[JBMoney]

Sneak attack is pretty enhanced now. You don't necessarily just get one by sneaking up and hitting from behind. You can also get additional sneak attacks during regular combat, if you pass the appropriate skill checks. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

Last night I started on an online 'Role Play' game that looked to be very good. It was called "Essembria" or something real similar. It has three towns and had plenty of quests even right off the start. It's very complete, even giving you a little 'instruction book' when you enter.

I didn't have time to get out of the first city, but I was impressed. In MOST online modules the conversation scripting is pretty shoddy. Sometimes you have to restart the conversation 3 or 4 times just to get all the info, instead of having the proper loops. "Essembria" still had a couple of these, but it wasn't the rule as it has been in most.

Within 30 minutes I had 4-5 quests. I plan to try and get back into that one with my cleric ("John Beckett") as soon as I can.

[JDub]

I was thinking of getting the game, but I travel alot for work and would be seriously hindered if it doesn't play well on a good laptop. Do any of you know how it would play on a Dell Latitude 1ghz with 256 MB of RAM and an 8 MB ATI AGPx2? I've checked the recommended specs at their site, but I was looking for more specific information if possible.

[JBMoney]

JDUB - You would be fine except for that 8MB of video RAM, considering the minimum specs are 64MB.

ALL - I'm trying to figure out how to host an NWN server behind an ISA firewall/proxy. I'm sure there is a way, but I'm still trying to figure it out. I don't know ISA nearly as well as the old MS Proxy 2.0, but I've been crash-coursing it all week and made two succesfull installations. Will let you know when I can get something up.

[JDub]

Thanks for the tip JB. I bought the game and have been officially sucked in. You were right about the video card though, guess it's time to start crying for a new laptop. Thank God it's not my only PC. Let me know if/when you get a server up, or if you need any help doing some of the networking research...I'd be glad to help.

[JBMoney]

If you know anything about ISA server, maybe you could help.

NWN uses UDP ports 1520 and 1521 (up to 1530 if you have more than one server session). I'm trying to set up a session on an internal client behind the ISA server so that it shows up on the Gamespy NWN client.

I've already tried a few ways of setting up the packet filters but without success. ISA is one very temperamental beast, much more so than Proxy 2.0.

I will probably try again today from home. Previous tests were from work and there were additional complications there. So... what I did at work might actually work fine from home. Just need to try it.

[JBMoney]

Actually, I was looking at the wrong box. The minimum for NWN is 16MB TNT2-class OpenGL 1.2 compliant video.

[JDub]

JB$- It's been a little while since I've messed around with opening ports and packet filtering for ISA. I'm not sure how far you've gotten into it, but here are a couple of links that you may not have run across:

http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/tips/controlling.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/tips/pptpandping.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/tips/enablinginternet.asp

Also, here's a little bit about disabling socket spooling (a FEATURE of IIS 5):rolleyes: http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/tips/socketpooling.asp

If this is old news, just tell me to shut the hell up and go away. As far as NWN on the laptop goes, it WILL run with the video settings at the minimums, but it looks muddy as hell (especially on an LCD), and there's a good little bit of IO lag from the vid card. I guess I will have to stick with playing on the desktop machine for now.:cry:

[JBMoney]

I'm going online right now to look for a game... the alcohol is already hitting... need to kill things.

[JBMoney]

Actually found some people playing in character, who gave me a hard time last night. For some reason, Paladins seem to have a problem with high-level clerics that drag around a Lich as personal assistant. Mwuhahahaha

[Wham Valdez]

hahah geez. Your 'non-roleplaying' probably threw off their 8sided dice saving rolls.

I've tried to get online but I was told my key wasn't valid. Is this because I haven't registered or do I need to come up with some other solution?

[JBMoney]

I was role-playing, and I was in character, it's just that when I started tagging along with the group I wasn't aware that they had a couple nancy-boy Paladins. Fortunately for me, or them, we were on a non-PvP server, otherwise I think they would have felt compelled to 'show me the light'. I left the group, had to be one of us and I was outnumbered.

I think you need to register. If you're using a hacked version you may have problems. I know it can always be done somehow, but they are particularly stringent about legit copies of the game on NWN.

[Eddioboy]

Just to go back real quick to that leveling up thing: I now realize that the PC rules ARE just like the rules in the player's handbook for the pen and paper game. I was under the impression that the players handbook allowed for people to level up their multiclasses so that the character was more than 20th level when they are added together. The fact is, player's handbook, like the game, doesn't allow that. It makes sense given that the XP tables are set up for character levels, not class levels. Duh.

When one does go beyond 20th character level, with rules detailed in that upcoming Epic book, level progression will change a lot. You can choose to level up normally in a class, or choose an "epic level benefit," such as raising an attribute, among other things. Epic level benefits will count as your level, and will be listed on the character sheet as epic, such as Sor22/Rog2/Epic2, where 4 epic levels went into sorceror (from 18), and 2 went into epic level benefits. Again, it would be good to include those changes on the PC!

You have a lich as your personal assistant?! Be sure to remember to get it something on Secretary's Day, or it might put something unpleasant in your coffee!

[JBMoney]

My cleric can create Greater Undead and/or raise Undead.

It's an arguable point, and alignment discussions can really be a pain, but some people get shocked and/or offended by a cleric hanging out with the undead, especially Paladins who can't afford to compromise on alignment issues.

However, different dieties (sic?) see things different ways. My cleric is lawful neutral, and my diety is a lawful neutral diety whose domain is death. On a board full of D&D freaks you could probably go on for weeks about whether or not that diety would allow clerics to raise the dead and/or whether that action itself is inherently evil. Personally I don't think so, as long as the original deceased's soul is not involved (another arguable point).

Anyhow, to avoid making folks squeamish I've switched to summoning Greater Elementals instead. It's not too bad of a compromise, but I do miss most of my enemies running away in fear because of the Liches aura.

:cry: Liches just wanna have fun too.

[JBMoney]

Also, remember when each class had a different XP table. Now they are all the same.

[cuda]

No one seems to like Dwarves in the NWN single player game. Everyone I talk to in the damn game talks shit to me. I'm getting pretty tired of taking that crap and then walking away. I should break character and start busting some lips.
:mad:


http://www.uniquehardware.co.uk/server-smilies/games/diablo/Whdatk.gif

[Eddioboy]

I play a dumb character (INT 8), and everyone....and I mean EVERYONE I meet has something to say. Even people you wouldn't expect, like the girl in charge of missions in the 1st campaign have to say things like, "I'll try to speak slowly so you'll understand," and things like that. Everyone there is consumed by dumb jokes!

"Hmmm, slow are we?"
"You're not the brightest are you?
and the classic, from the Main lady who heads up all the missions in the 1st campiagn (I can't remember her name; the one who sends you looking for the Waterdhavian creatures):

"You are proof that wit is no match for valor and a strong heart"

:(

[Wham Valdez]

Holy backhanded compliments batman!

I'm unwilling to purchase the game myself because it's 80 bucks up here. But I'm moving soon and my friend has a copy which he doesn't play online with. Soon means October.

Then I will smite you all.

[cuda]

Originally posted by Eddioboy
I play a dumb character (INT 8), and everyone....and I mean EVERYONE I meet has something to say. Even people you wouldn't expect, like the girl in charge of missions in the 1st campaign have to say things like, "I'll try to speak slowly so you'll understand," and things like that. Everyone there is consumed by dumb jokes!

"Hmmm, slow are we?"
"You're not the brightest are you?
and the classic, from the Main lady who heads up all the missions in the 1st campiagn (I can't remember her name; the one who sends you looking for the Waterdhavian creatures):

"You are proof that wit is no match for valor and a strong heart"
:(


I have a Ranger/Druid Dwarf with an intelligence of 9 and charisma of 8. I'm pretty dumb and ugly, but I figured it would be better to load up on the other attributes. I also have a cool Dire Wolf. *adjusts pocket protector and thick horn rim glasses.*
:nerd: